Friday, October 9, 2009

Serial production of 117S will started soon

The Russian ARMS-TASS agency has reported Oct. 9, that the contract between the Russian Air Force and UMPO plant (merged in 'United Engine-building Corporation') was signed for 96 Al-41F-1S engines purchase. They will be installed on the serial Su-35S fighters. The first party of the engines would be delivered in 2010, and the whole contract – till 2015.  Al-41F-1S ('izdelie 117S') is developed by 'Saturn' with UMPO input, and it has a thrust vectoring nozzle . Two months ago the contract between the Russian Air Force and 'Sukhoi Corp.' was signed for delivering 48 Su-35S, 12 Su-27SM и 4 Su-30М2 fighters until 2015. About 15 Al-41F engines were produced early for the canceled '1.44 project' of 5th generation fighter, which was developed by MiG corp. during 90th. Al-41F-1S - is the intermediate engine solution for the Indo-Russian PAK-FA/FGFA fighter too, it is going to fly till year end with according to the RuAF plan. India could gain these technologies too if wants. As HAL Indian airspace industry corporation's chief and others admitted early, India has already got the single-crystal blade technology during Al-31F ToT agreement.

Added latter:  The Al-41F-1S ('izdelie 117S') engine is a re-dimensioned version of Al-41 engine for fitting Su-30/Su-35 and FGFA/PAKFA fighters. It's as 15% lighter than the predecessor, according to the Saturn's chief engineer.  The t/w ratio on wet is 10 kgf/kg. The '117S' engine - is an initial and export version with 14.5 t thrust, while '117' - is a 15 t thrust domestic version for PAKFA (and probably FGFA too) on the first stage of project. Latter the even more advanced 5th+ gen. engine with t/w = 11.5 - 12.5 kgf/kg is planned for PAKFA.


  1. Any news regarding the specs of PAK-FA/FGFA fighter specially with regards to speed, stealth, performance.
    Good work :)

  2. Only know publicly that the PAK FA max speed will be limited to 2.0 M. Initially was planned 2.3 M, but they said it's too ambitious for a stealth plane. So I can guess, the stealth geometry must be prominent on the plane. TVN and IR emission reduction are implemented too.

  3. Even at Mach 2 it still will easily out perform F-22 and become one of the most potent fighters of the world. Your comments on this Igor. Look at my update in your post reg RD-33 regarding Defence Minister's visit.

  4. to igorr

    what is the dry thrust of al41 engine for 1.44
    and any guess what is dry thrust of f119?

  5. to Manish Kumar:

    yes, i have read this. thanks for the link! Methinks, it can be a great progress in some important directions, partially - are completely new for two countries. Also the MTU program must take a push ahead, they are negotiating too long.

  6. According to Russian sources (the Saturn's chief) f119 has 15.5 t of the wet thrust, while Al-41f - 15% higher. But Al-41F installed on 1.44/1.42 weights more in same proportion. Althought, I have no dry thrust numbers for both engine, I can guess they are comparable between them (with proportion to the weight). Otherwise PAKFA would not have a super-cruise characteristics. However Al-41F-1S (117S) is lighter than Al-41F .

  7. Hello Igor, the upgraded Su 30 MKI should get this engine too, besides an AESA version of Bars. Do you have any other infos about the upgrade? Some reports talks about an internal weapon bay between the engines, do you think that is possible? And do you have any infos about the RCS of, MKI, or the latest Su35/Su34?

    Regards, Sancho

  8. To Sancho:
    Hi! As to an internal bay, I don't think it to be realized on the upgrade, because they are going to provide the Brahmos installation there. I don't see a way how they could be ensured both, if not they offer something totally exotic.
    Su-30MKI RCS is between 3.5 and 5 m2 depending of the angle. Su-35 stealth technologies (the composites and the covering) can provide it reducing by 4-5 times considering what the Russians advertise for such eventuality on different planes. Again: it's only if the Russians don't provide some new nano-technologies for anti-radar covering, they have developed recently (will be described in my next posts in this blog). Thus it could be reduced by 10 times and even more.

  9. Hi Igorr,
    In the last thread,you had asked for the link that contained information relating to GOI ordering another 90 MKI(230+90)). Here it is

    Search for [Prasun sengupta Friday, October 02, 2009 11:50:00 AM]

    2)On the blog the author also mentions that fact that LCA is not only contender for MMRCA but also the winner!

  10. Hi Igorr,
    Completely unrelated to the present thread, but why can't russia ease visa restrictions for Indian businessmen. Also why cannot russia open a small fraction of Oil & Natural gas fields for development to India. Business cooperation between 2 countries is still very low(8+billiondollars) compares to Russia trade with EU or china

  11. to anon October 10, 2009 10:23 AM:
    1) The number 50+40 seems to me a result of information mix. Indeed, what could mean 50 and what - 40? Why not just 90 in one batch? I think, since 50 MKIs were contracted (or gonna be), there is no sense to expect for additional 40 in the next 2-3 years at least. Surely India will wait to additional tech progress to implement it on next MKIs contract. Of course, nobody can exactly know the future...
    2) Donno what Prasun means under M-MRCA category in this instance. May be he does mean N-LCA in mk.2 configuration will be close in its weight and capability to the medium combat aircraft class?

  12. to anon October 10, 2009 10:26 AM:

    1) India takes participation in Sakhalin-2 liquid gas project. As about to oil, I'm not inside the issue, but my feeling if something really hampers for higher Indian involvement, it's not political, but economical reasons, especially with the new president Medvedev's more balanced stance in International relationships. Putin was a really pro-European politic with very often meetings with German and French leaders relatively to Indians. Medvedev isn't so.
    2) Visas problem for India's nationalities with Russia is due to signed by Putin the readmission agreement with EU. Thus Russia is obligated to pay for readmission of third country illegals in EU if they came via Russia. Then they must be very careful with a new visa deal. What they want now in Kremlin - the analogous readmission agreement between Moscow and Delhi. AS I read, it's not going till now. However, the special visas for the businessmen between the countries were spoken 3 years ago. Strange for me if no improvement was till now.

  13. "I don't think it to be realized on the upgrade, because they are going to provide the Brahmos installation there."

    Hi Igor, but will this be the only station where Brahmos can be carried? Because some models also shows them on the wing stations.
    Two Brahmos on wing stations and a internal bay between the engines really would make the Flankers to a great 4++ gen fighters and more equal to latest fighters like EF and Rafale.

  14. to Sancho:

    true, it could, but I have a different information about only one Brahmos missile on the MKI's centroplan. Want to be wrong however... :)
    Early they complained, that if one Brahmos delivered from a wing, the weight of the second one can roll the plane. Donno if they solved the problem.

  15. The MKI will carry only 1 BrahMos. That is confirmed. This was decided after a detailed study after which it was found that carrying more than one would require significant structural modifications to the aircraft. Carrying out such extensive modifications was deemed unfeasible and the idea was dropped.

  16. hi Igorr,
    [Putin was a really pro-European politic with very often meetings with German and French leaders relatively to Indians.]
    Very sad indeed. When BJP came to power GOI did move to center vis-a-vis Russia but now congess govt. has again leaned towards Russia inspite of this nuclear deal.

  17. "Early they complained, that if one Brahmos delivered from a wing, the weight of the second one can roll the plane. Donno if they solved the problem."

    That's a point! :(
    Brahmos should be 1T heavier as the KAB 1500 and that really would make a difference in balancing the weight.