Tuesday, November 29, 2011

T-90MS vs Land Rover, HD video

No new details of the tank, just a good resolution video:


  1. Igorr,

    Is it possible for you to get a copy of the official Indo-Russian deal on T-90 during the period 2001? Or atleast the relevant part w.r.t what all systems were included in the ToT initially?

    During the last few days a former tankan (who now makes a living out of his anti-Russian rants and pseudo-Nationalist garbage) have come up with his venomous article regarding the T-90 deal.


    But it looks like some Russian department have contacted him (or his bill payers - Business Standard) and given him or his employer to watch out their "script".....

    ....probably it was the reason why we saw some loss of steam after he posted the above article. He have now come up with a little "tonned-down" article (below)... but his intentions remains the same.


    He himself is on record claiming this in reply on his blog ---->
    Broadsword said...

    I am, in fact, being pressured by the Russians --- and directly, not through lobbies!

    But just as this blog carries its own views on the F-35, it will carry its own views on the T-90S.

    Next article posted.
    2 December 2011 09:41

    To the best of my knowledge on probabilities that may have caused this tankman to tone down his rants maybe due to his employers & himself being "cautioned" by the Russian authorities.

    To the best of my knowledge, this desperate guy probably have not seen or have access to the documents of the deal on T-90. If he had any, he should have posted the copy of the deal showing that Russia had signed the ToT for 2A46M cannons in 2001 and violated it. But no such hard proof even after visiting HVF.

    He is also a lair.....he posted his first dubious article on 28th Nov 2011 which some kids on the forum accepted with ecstasy.

    But it took him 4 more days to post his next article, which was little toned down from his earlier article....probably due to the "reaction" or maybe even "threat" from the Russian side for any legal actions (against him or his employer) for promoting lies and damaging the reputation of the supplier. He posted his new article on 2nd November 2011 which Austin promptly posted...

    But we can see what a lair he is and how he manipulates with facts! He has now set the date of release for the 2nd part of T-90 article in his blog as 28th Nov 20111.

    I would love to see this Shukla going forward with his dirty work and push the Russians to the extreme so much so that they finally throw open the relevant documents relating to the ToT for T-90 deal during 2001.

    If it happens,we all will get to see what the truth is. If there is any truth in what this guy says. Good for him. Else, he will get exposed like anything. I would go as far as to say that, if a situation like that happen UVZ should not just stop at exposing this guys, but should file a heavy monetary lawsuit against him & his employer for promoting baseless allegations with the intend of damaging the reputation of the company due to hidden agenda.

  2. Nice video, can you translate what is being said on the video and what is the purpose of this comparison.

    Is there any more part of this comparison?

  3. to anon December 3, 2011 1:27 AM

    The text of T-90 deal agreement is confident for obvious cause (which opens the door for speculations) and cannot be published of course nor known to col. Shukla. The last – is a man addicted to extremely polar positions. He was well known and criticized on BR Forum 8-10 years ago for his inadequately hard anti –Arjun stance. Then he was the most prominent Arjun hater (and T-90 'lover' in parallel) in Bharat Rakshak Forum. He long time was absent there, but one day has appear again with his position transformed drastically to the opposite. Now he followed the work in Business Standard more active concentrating on the 'venerable' Arjun vs T-90 issue. Sometimes the 'facts' he brings to publication were ambiguous . I don’t want to say he fabricates, but certainly is based on not reliable sources without proper analysis, then his articles lack consistence and stability like you can see in the last two publications about T-90.

    I'm sure you know that his claims were officially disproof by RIAN. For those who may be don’t know:

    Moscow is puzzled over Indian media rumors claiming that Russia refuses to fulfill a decade-old contract on licensed production of T-90S main battle tanks in India, a Russian defense industry source said.

    “The Russian side is timely and completely fulfilling all agreements with India on the licensed production of T-90 tanks, including the delivery of all necessary components and the transfer of technical documentation,” the source said on Tuesday.

    India’s Business Standard said on November 28 that the licensed production of T-90 tanks was “hamstrung by Moscow’s obstruction in transferring technology and the Russian-built assemblies needed even for the India-built tanks.”

    “It is difficult to say why these allegations have emerged,” the Russian source said, adding that all controversial issues on the arms contracts with India are promptly resolved by the Russian-Indian intergovernmental commission on military-technical cooperation.

    Russian diplomatic sources in India believe that the media rumors reflect the attempts by the Indian side to shift the responsibility for its own inability to manage the production of sophisticated military equipment.

    The agreement for T-90 supply to India was signed in 2001 (translated from the Russian text) following delays in the manufacturing of the indigenous Arjun main battle tank and Pakistan's decision to purchase the T-80 from Ukraine. A contract was also signed for the licensed production of another 1,000 T-90s.

    Initial disagreements with Russia over transfer of technology were resolved at the end of 2008, according to official statements on both sides.

    Only 150 T-90S have been built so far at the Heavy Vehicle Factory (HVF) in Avadi, Chennai.

    According to other publications in the Indian media, a slow rate of production has been caused by the failure of some Indian sub-contractors to fulfill their obligations under the contract". http://en.rian.ru/world/20111130/169159735.html

    - It were worth if Ajay Shukla informs us about T-90 sub-contractors, whether they indeed fail to fulfill their obligations and why so. The difference in quality between the Russian made and locally produced T-90s, ensued from his second article, is disturbing indeed.

  4. Hello Igor,

    Is it worth having a Stealth Aircraft ? Isn't it true that the F 22 has never been tested and the B 2 has been succesfull only against X band radar. The Serbs shot down a F 117 using similar X band radars.

    After Russia introduced the low band radars, especially operating in the VHF band isn't it now possible to detect and shoot down any stealth fighter before they can do any damage ?



  5. Low band radars make detection easier... but not exactly easy. The Serbs shooting down an F-117 was not luck but they only shot down one and that took a lot of effort and careful planning.

    Having stealthy aircraft makes the other guys job harder.

    It is worth it for Russia to make the PAK FA as long as they don't end up costing too much and the stealth is not achieved by making the aircraft very maintainence intensive.

    Expensive hangar queens are white elephants.

    I am sure the Russians will find a balance between stealth and cost effectiveness... something the F-22 clearly missed out on.

  6. GarryB,

    Most stealth design features are intended to scatter incoming illumination in a controlled fashion. The prerequisite for this to work is that the wavelength be much shorter than the cardinal dimensions of the shaping feature of relevance. Therefore, for Stealth Aircrafts to counter VHF band radar the wavelengths must be of the order of a metre or more, which today only the B 2 has ( however it is not a fighter aircraft).

    A fighter sized aircraft such as the F 22 or F 35 will see most of its cautiously designed shaping features fall into the resonance or Raleigh scattering regions, where shaping is of little or no import, and skin depth penetration of the induced electrical surface currents defeats most absorbent coatings or laminates.

    To the best of my knowledge the Serbs shot down 1 and inflicted unacceptable damage on another F 117 ( however it made it to base) . As you might recall that the F 117 was soon taken out of action by the US from the conflict .Western, in particular American, weapons are treated as corporate crown jewels. Since they bring in profits to the companies they are too big to fail even if they are ineffectual in war or outdated. This in US parlance is called pork.

    There were 4 F117s that were pressed in action in Operation Allied Force of which 2 were hit with the antiquated SA 3 Goa . This means it was a highly in-effective weapon and was therefore withdrawn from service altogether. I have serious doubts whether the Serbs found it difficult to hit the F 117 . As with all other US weapon system "Stealth" is therefore a marketing gimmick. It promises a lot however gives nothing in return .

    The F 22 can NEVER strike a High Value target in China or Russia , because they are deep inside these vast countries . Before they reach say Moscow or Beijing they would already have been shot down .

    All these being said I would hope & pray that Russia proves me wrong and the PAK FA would be an example of an aircraft where shaping and RAM actually makes a difference.



  7. You have to stop thinking like an American aircraft maker and more like a Russian tank designer.
    To the Americans the key is stealth and it is expensive to buy and expensive to maintain but it gives an edge.
    Now look at a Russian tank... it is 20 tons lighter than a western tank but has similar protection levels.
    It has special layered armour... just like western tanks, but instead of making it all layered armour and therefore needing armour as thick and heavy as western armour, they have saved weight by using ERA.
    At first that made Russian tanks vulnerable to APDSFS rounds but as ERA has matured it now degrades their performance too, so instead of having another 10-15 tons of built in layered armour they get away with 1-2 tons of ERA modules that result in similar levels of protection.
    They can further improve things by adding APS and passive protection systems like ARENA and Shtora respectively. Not enough on their own but together with the other layers they improve protection over a wide range of threat types at minimal weight penalty.

    Don't think of Stealth as a be all and end all.

    Think of Stealth as a type of ECM.

    It means that even if they have long wave radars that will tell them roughly where you are they no longer have the option of a long range shot with an AMRAAM because the stealth effect has reduced its detection range enough to make it near useless as a fire and forget weapon.

    Being able to see a target is only half the problem... you have to be able to hit it with something.

    The PAK FA will not be some miracle plane, but it renders obsolete all Euro canards in a single step and renders Meteor pretty useless because with its IR sensors the PAK FA will be able to spot Meteor from quite a distance and will be able to fly "around" it so even when it turns on its radar scanner its reduced detection range means the Pakfa pilot need never let it get close enough to see him... and that is asuming the Rafale or Typhoon even sees him in the first place to launch.

    The F-22 and the B-2 on the other hand will be up against aircraft using L band radar in wing mounted AESA antenna arrays, plus the latest in IIR sensors. A simple datalink connection between a flight of 4 Su-35Ss and they could synthesise an L band antenna thousands of metres in length... which should be able to spot B-2s at extended distances... there wouldn't be many other insect size targets at 10,000m doing 800km/h over the north pole.

    Stealth is worth it as long as it doesn't completely compromise everything else... otherwise one breakthrough and you are a sitting duck with your very expensive white elephant.

  8. Given the limited F 22A that the US has it seems unlikely it will use them in an future war against the PAKFA . The next generation of war is going to be waged from space. It is therefore, quite likely that the US will attack a PAKFA base with space based weapon first.

    In mid-May 2011, Zelin’s predecessor Anatoly Kornukov didn’t conceal from reporters the fact that the capacity of the Russian air defense system was not ideal. Kornukov said Russia has a limited capability to repel attacks by fighter aircraft and missiles. As for tactical missiles targeting Russia, he doubts that Russia will cope with them.

    Contemporary defense doctrines of leading nations envisage warfare in space. Dozens of satellites have been used in military programmess in near-space for years. In a short time, there will be weapons in space capable of attacking targets on earth. Furthermore, most of the antimissile systems that are currently developing at a brisk pace, especially in the U.S., are expected to be deployed in space.

    In this context, creating an integrated aerospace defense system is a challenge that Russia has to address today, not tomorrow. However, according to the plans of Russia’s military and political leadership, the development of the ADF won’t be completed until 2020.

  9. Moving war to space would be the dumbest move the US could make.

    Right now it dominates space as the Russians have understandably let their space assets go, but these mew ABM systems will promote Russia to build similar systems... and an ABM system that can hit small objects moving at orbital speed will be a small hop away from weapons that can bring down satellites.

    Over the next decade the Russians will start putting up more and more satellites and they will share space with the US.

    The US has signed agreements banning space based weapons, and if it violates that agreement... well what happens when North Korea starts putting up dozens of satellites?

    If the US starts shooting them down is that an act of war?

    The problem is too much of a gray area and I doubt they will want to tread that path.

    BTW if space based weapons could be that powerful, then why bother with an air force or SAMs at all?

    You can always build a much bigger and much more powerful laser on the ground than anything that can be put in space.

    The new technology used to distort mirrors in space telescopes to allow for the distortions caused by the atmosphere to give a clear view of stars and planets could be applied to a laser beam to help it hit satellites much harder...

    Now I am sure you will say the US has ABL.. the Soviets tested their equivalent in the 1980s.

  10. Actually I won't say that the US has ABL . Where is it anyway ? They do pretend to have one though just like we pretend to have a Light Combat Aircraft.

    Russia may put more satellites in space , good , but so is US and of course our not so good friend China , who are already developing Space Stations . You have to see things in context here . The US signed agreements banning space based weapons because most of their programs viz Brilliant Pebbles , HyperVelocity Rail Gun were huge failures. Today they do not have much challenge , so they can reverse the decision . They had also signed declarations stating that they are decreasing their nuclear stockpile . Ground reality is the United States intends to spend $700 billion on nuclear weapons and related areas over the next decade and a further $92 billion over same period on nuclear warheads, and also plans twelve new nuclear powered ballistic missile submarines.China is rapidly building up its arsenal of mobile medium-range and long-range missiles with multiple warheads and has under construction up to five new SSBNs capable of launching ballistic missiles.

    In contrast Russia plans to spend $70 billion on improving its strategic nuclear triad by 2020, will introduce a new ICBM with multiple warheads and develop a new-generation SSBN to carry cruise missiles, as well as sea launched ballistic missiles.

    This apart the US is spending billions in developing Smart Weapons ( PGM) because it believes that PGMs are the weapons of deterrence. Has Russia started any such work to develop state of the art Smart Weapons ? I am not so sure.

    Russia's job therefore, is becoming increasingly difficult. It has to compete in space as well on the ground in the face of rapid US and Chinese military modernization .


  11. Their new stuff will be to replace old stuff.
    The START treaty limit the numbers of strategic nukes they can have so new SSBNs means old SSBNs will be retired.

    They didn't ban weapons in space because Star Wars was a failure... they banned it after they realised that space based assets are actually very vulnerable to ground based assets, while being much more expensive to launch and maintain.

    A single large nuke hidden in the back of a satellite that might operate for years as something else as a cover, detonated in space above the US will wipe out most electronics, and make radar useless for an hour or two because of the ionising radiation... the perfect cover for a first strike.

    The Russians actually have a more mature space launch capacity with shorter turn around, so if it came to who can replace their satellites quickest then Russia has a definite advantage.

    The Russians have merged their air defence forces (PVO which was part of the Air Force... VVS) and they space forces (VKO). The new force combines ground based radars, SAMs, interceptor aircraft, airborne radars, and space based radars to monitor Russian airspace from the ground up to space... from cruise missiles to satellites. They will need a lot more assets as they need to improve coverage of the borders of Russia and add to their ability to track objects in orbit. They operate as a single entity over all 4 Russian military districts and is not subordinate to them.

    Russia has been constantly upgrading their ballistic missiles... they have new missiles in service or on the verge of service right now... it is the US that is behind in that technlogy... the Russians are deploying MARVs launched from Trucks with flight ranges of well over 8,000km with 6-10 warheds per missile.

    The Russians have developed a non rotating electronic fuse with control surfaces for arillery ammo of 152m calibre or larger. Each fuse costs $1,000 but makes dumb cheap 152mm shells Glonass guided with an accuracy of less than 10m. The US equivalent will cost $50,000 once it is in full production and production scales reduce the costs.
    All of a sudden all that old Russian arillery like the 2S4 240mm mortar can fire one shot and hit a target 19km away with a 130kg shell.

    Talk about a force multiplier...

  12. Hi Igor,

    Are the protests in Moscow that took place yesterday directed towards Putin or towards his party ?

    The general feeling here in India is that Putin is pro India and if anyone else becomes President , they will be pro Europe & India Russia relation will take a backseat ( just like the Yelstin era) .



  13. Shantanu,

    Russians are sick to death of Putin and his party during 12 years of their dominance in Russian politics, but I dont see hazard risk to Russia-India relationship in that. I remember personally have criticized Putin for his pro-European stance, often visits to Germany, France even Italy without enough attention to Delhi. Now the Communist Party and the left 'Just Russia' were squeeze out Putin's 'United Russia' in Parliament. I dont think it could be bad for relationship with India. Putin's era now is going, like Berluskoni's and most his friends in Europe of 2000th.

  14. This is strange, because from the outside Putin seems to have done a much better job for Russia than Yeltsin did, and there are no obvious replacements that could get the job done in the same way... except perhaps Medvedev.

    From my view from the other side of the planet, if you don't want the communists and you don't want Putin then all that is left is the candidates that will sell Russia out to the west overnight and Russian people really will get screwed, Muppets like Gary Kasparov that protest being arrested in English to the foreign media... imagine a US congressman with funding from China who organises illegal rallys and then when he gets arrested starts protesting his innocence in Chinese.

    Like the fictional US congressman, Kasparov is appealing... not to his fellow Russians, but to his foreign paymasters through the foreign press... if you went up to him and asked him for an interview from a Russian paper he wouldn't give you the time of day.

    The protests on the streets of Russia are largely funded by NGOs via the US, which the US freely admits to and is talking about increasing the funding for!!!
    15,000 protesters is nothing... there would be more going to a soccer game, and in a country of over 100 million then 15,000 is statistically insignificant.

    Hopefully American pig headedness over the US ABM system in Europe will redirect Putins attention south and also east... both India and lots of countries in Asia deserve more attention and wont have a stereotypical attitude to Russia like much of the west does.

  15. Igor,

    Just two weeks ago in London I was discussing with a young Russian couple how India perceives the West. I realized from that discussion that most Russians want favorable relations with Europe & US. Nothing wrong with that . However, I did take the opportunity to inform them that the West ( especially the Anglo Saxon world) is looking for opportunities to disintegrate Russia as was evident in Georgia.

    On the brighter side I believe it is much more easier for the West ( and China) to disintegrate India as we have little or no respect for each other . China & the est have made no bones about their desire to disintegrate India . With China's rapid "economic" advance in Eastern Russia Indias's problems have only increased. As Obama said in his last visit to China that the next century belongs to G2 ( US + China)

  16. Yeah, when Obama was in Australia he congratulated them on being the first country in the world to give women the vote... and if you don't get that reference it was New Zealand that was the first country that gave women the vote.

    What the US and the west wants is not necessarily what it will get.

    The issue with Russia and the west is interesting... there are two relevant and related sayings in the west... nice guys finish last, and treat them mean and keep them keen.

    Let me explain.

    Most single men look at how married men treat their wives, and most think they would treat women better than married men do... so why are they not married?

    It seems that women will get beaten up by their husbands and still stay with them out of "love".

    It seems that these abused women have no self respect and keep going back for more.

    I think the Russian people are like this... they have suffered like no other people in the west, yet the evil and barbarity of Stalin that was inflicted on the Russian people rather more than say the British or even the German people is used as evidence to show the Russians are evil... which is amusing because first of all he was Georgian, and second, most of his barbarity wasn't even directed at the west... it was directed at his own people... so it is the victims of his crimes that bear the punishment from the morally obsessed west.
    The western hatred for Russia goes back to imperial times well before communism... there are reminents of coastal artillery here in New Zealand that was built not to keep the Germans or the Americans at bay... they were built to stop the Russians well over 100 years ago.
    Those so called half asians were going to come and steal the British commonwealth away from Britain... that is the root of the hatred from the british perspective. The Germans and French actually don't hate them so much, but still don't love Russia... both lost armies there.
    Personally I think Russia should look east, including to China, for trading partners that will at least treat them as equals, rather than as a defeated superpower like Europe does. If we are pointing and calling countries names then Britain, France, Germany, Portugal, Greece, Turkey, Spain, and Italy could all claim to have been a super power in their time.

    Obama is a one term president... he can say what he wants, but a G-2 of the US and China will never happen... there is no trust there.

    Amusing though really... the US keen to get into bed with communist China and abandon Europe and a democratic Russia... what exactly was the Cold war all about again?
    If they could swallow a communist china now, why couldn't they have simply gotten along with communist Soviet Union and saved a huge amount of money? Obviously their military industrial complex is what drove their economy and still does, so they need wars... they clearly can't go to war with China as China can simply demand payment on their debt and destroy their economy.
    I think Russia should forget about making friends with the west because the west doesn't have friends. It should just focus on business and commerce and expand ties with everyone who is interested... everywhere. India should be an important direction to expand and a good way to do this is to create some Indian based TV programming for Russian TV so Russian people can learn directly about India and its culture and people and customs and language. In the process they should develop programmes about Russia for Indian TV and trade programmes.

    Find an Indian network that is reputable/reliable, and choose a similarly reputable/reliable Russian network and they can each start a series of documentaries aimed at the other audience. After the first programmes have aired, then you can have people emailing or phoning in questions or requests for different bits to be covered in more depth.
    It could perhaps start with military cooperation, but it should cover all cooperation including opportunities for the future to promote further cooperation.

  17. Yes, Russians make for good leaders . Indians make for good workers and works extremely well under good leadership .

    Indians lack leadership qualities . Russia lacks enough people. As a country Indians do not have a sense of identity . Our affiliation moves in concentric circles . We are first associated with our community , then our caste , then our state and eventually our country . So by the time these circles reach country they become so thin that it can easily be penetrated .

    The Britishers exploited this lack of identity for more than 200 years . The Us has started exactly where the UK left .

    After the end of Cold War, New Delhi tried to join the US empire through the MNCs - becoming an ardent fan of the ‘Washington consensus’ – jumping around at the world economic forum with a list of Indian middle class.The Americans had different designs on India – they were eyeing the huge military manpower market in India. They had learnt well from the Indian colonial history that it was the military manpower from India that helped the British expand its empire far and wide into Africa. Thus began the process of making India join with the empire at the level of military. Joint naval exercises, intelligence sharing, training the best Indian armed forces officers under the IMET programs and much more started.

    Russia has a vibrant foreign policy . India doesn't . It's only "failed" foreign policy is Pakistan centric .Russia should take the first step and make it's presence felt in India .

    Russia should encourage more students from India to study in India as there is a lack of good educational institutions in India. If Indians get jobs in Russia it will mean that India becomes more dependent on Russia . This is exactly what is happening with India's relation with the US . It's the diaspora that is driving this relation . If Russia invests in India it will gain significantly from India's affordable manpower .

  18. Hi Igor,

    Just need to know from you how is the Russian media interpreting the just concluded visit of Manmohan Singh to Russia ? Have the reviews been good or bad ?



  19. Hello Igor,

    Is there something fundamentally different in the lineage/ancestry of the T-80 and T-90 .Is T-80 a progression of the T-64 and the T-90 of the T-72 series.Is is also that ,the T-64 was a superior design and as such the T-80 lineage is better to T-90.Is the Ukrainian Oplot and T series a progression of the T-64?


  20. The T-64 and T-80 were the best they could design an produce during the Cold War.
    The T-72 was a mechanically simpler and much cheaper tank to mass produce, though over time they all got upgrades to keep them competitive.

    When the Soviet Union split up the company designing and making the T-80 was in the Ukraine, while the company making and designing the T-72 was in Russia. There was another company that worked on T-80s in Russia... they were the ones that came up with the Black Eagle design.

    The result of the split and general animosity between Russia and the Ukraine (lots of T-80 components were made in Russia and when the Ukraine got a contract to sell lots of T-80s to the Ukraine then understandably the Russians refused to supply the parts which annoyed the Ukrainians too).
    The result was that the Russians had to choose between the basically Ukrainian T-80, which they had thousands in service, and whatever the T-72 company (UVZ) could come up with.
    UVZ basically took every component of the T-72 and replaced it with new high tech stuff which actually resulted in it being every bit as good as the contemporary version of the T-80.

    in fact combat experience had showed that the T-80/T-64 design of autoloader was flawed in that the projectiles were stored horizontally pointing inwards, but the propellent stubs were stored vertically and were not protected... so any penetration of the crew compartment showered sparks and molten metal hit the ammo stubs and set off an explosion.
    The T-72 and T-90 has a different arrangement where both the propellent stubs and the projectiles lie horizontally and are separated from the crew compartment by an armoured cover.
    In combat it was found that the T-72s were perfectly safe even if penetrated as long as there was no loose ammo in the crew compartment... in other words only load 22 rounds in the autoloader and have no extra ammo in the crew compartment and there were not internal explosions.

    The new armour in the T-90 seems to be more effective than the armour on the T-80 according to tests in the 1990s.

    With all new electronics and new french thermal sights and everything upgraded the T-90 is better protected and more capable than the T-80.
    The Ukrainian T-84 is an improved T-80 and is a very good tank too.

    It is very hard to say which is best, but they are certainly up to current western standard in many areas and very good tanks in their own right.

  21. @Gary B,
    Thanks a lot.
    Good to hear that T-90s and T-72s can hold their own.

  22. Not 100% sure about the direction of Ukrainian armour, but the after the T-90 was chosen the T-80 stuff started to be folded up... they have a lot in service and they are sophisticated tanks so they will keep them in service, but not perform any major upgrades and when they are worn out they will be replaced by Russian tanks.
    Attempts to upgrade the T-90 an make it "better" led to the Burlak design ...it keeps the underfloor autoloader, which was found to be safe in combat, but adds the turret bustle autoloader of the Black Eagle as the design team at the Russian manufacturer of T-80s were transferred to UVZ. This meant that the tank had 22 rounds in the underfloor autoloader, plus another 31 rounds in a rear turret bustle autoloader. There is no 90 degree rotation or turning of the ammo required so a simple straight rammer can be used to load both the projectile and the propellent charge straight into the breach.
    An added advantage over the faster loading action is that much longer penetrators can be used because they don't have to fit in the turret ring.

    The Russian military rejected the design because they thought the ammo stored in the turret bustle was too exposed to enemy fire so the new Armata will have all three crew in the front hull plus an external main gun and all the main gun ammo inside the turret below the turret ring level in protected ammo bins.
    The T-90MS and T-90AM are temporary solutions till Armata is ready circa 2015, but even they are a bit expensive at 4 mil each so it seems that the Russian military will spend a little on T-72 upgrades and save money for more Armatas when they become available.

    Of course if Armata is expensive then they might start producing the T-90AM and Armata together as cheaper mass production tank, and expensive but more capable breakthrough tank.

  23. why are you Rusians promoting and enhancing the arrogance and lies of englishr ace-land rover is rubbish and many four wheel drives are much better and classy than that junk for the price it asks. but why a russian go on promoting and settling in england which si the msot dire enemny of russia?are the russians as stupid as Indians/

  24. 4th June, 2007.

    President putin is wrong when he says that russia should or will target the missile on europe if america goes with anti missile defence plan in Europe.
    Russia must target (rather than should) the nuclear missiles with multiple war heads against all the cities, towns and big villages( including military instalations) of england because this cold war -like the one before- is being started by england for the benefit of english race only-.it is race war between the english parasite race versus the rest of the world-the sooner the rest of the world realizes that better it is for the world.
    look how germany wes villified soon after fall of soviet union-look how russia is being vilified immediately after Putin made russia strong.
    look how american has been isntagated for perpetaul awar by the british bastards. Aritish spy naill faergussan and huntingtosn go to usa and preach hatred and racial inflammmatory speech telling americans that the time for religious and civilization war has come-why do these english bastards not figtht their war by thier own means rather than on shoulders of american arms?
    thse same biriths bastrds talking of religious(chrisitan and muslim ) war propagandasie hispanics, iriash , ger,ams , french as not in american chritisan groups. they also do not think those white europeans to be thier kind wich desreves to be ion america-such is the evil propaganda of britihs spies inside america. .
    poland is nothing but a proxy for the british bastards.
    itis no use targetting poland -target the main villain which is england and the english race which m ust be aniihilated fromt the face of the world.

    28th april,2007.

    The foreign policy sections of Putin's Message were relatively brief, but pointed. They continued what he began Feb. 10 in his speech to the Munich "Wehrkunde" Conference on Security. Putin zeroed in on the types of programs that go by the name of Project Democracy (since the founding of the U.S. National Endowment for Democracy, in the 1980s):

    "There are those who, making clever use of pseudodemocratic phraseology, would like to bring back the recent past: some, in order to be able to loot our national wealth with impunity, as in the past, to rob the people and the state; others, to strip our country of its economic and political independence. In addition, there is a growing influx of foreign money, used for direct interference in our internal affairs. If we look to more distant times in the past, we see that during the hey-day of colonialism, there was talk about an alleged civilizing role of the colonizing states. Today, 'democraticizing' slogans are used. But the goal is the same: to achieve unilateral advantage for one's own benefit and interests."

  25. Whoops... in my post above about tanks I made an error.

    When I put:


    The result of the split and general animosity between Russia and the Ukraine (lots of T-80 components were made in Russia and when the Ukraine got a contract to sell lots of T-80s to the Ukraine then understandably the Russians refused to supply the parts which annoyed the Ukrainians too).


    I actually meant to put:

    The result of the split and general animosity between Russia and the Ukraine (lots of T-80 components were made in Russia and when the Ukraine got a contract to sell lots of T-80s to Pakistan then understandably the Russians refused to supply the parts which annoyed the Ukrainians too).

    The Russians didn't want to be seen to be supplying weapons to its best customers enemy so they refused to cooperate. If it had been a contract to sell T-80s to Algeria or Iran they probably would have been happy for the business, but they didn't want to upset their best customer. Keep in mind these components were for the T-80 so these companies were desperate for sales as the Indians weren't buying T-80s and neither was Russia. From memory they sold some T-80s to Cyprus and South Korea... the latter for debt reduction.

  26. @Avatar Singh,

    You ask why they race their tank against a British Range Rover?
    Probably because they wanted their tank to beat the pride of the British car industry... defeating a much cheaper and better Japanese or other 4WD off road vehicle would have less impact... plus beating a humvee would be too easy... :)

  27. Igor and GarryB,

    Just wanted to drop a line to thank you both for the great content that you put on this web . As an aspiring Indian Aerospace & Defense entrepreneur and a strong advocate of Indo Russian friendship I wish you both a very Happy and Prosperous 2012.



  28. HAPPY NEW YEAR Igorr!

  29. Happy New Year, Holy Silvester for all my friends Christians!

    T-80 - is not purely Ukrainian project since the chassis is developed in San Petersburg (it is very different from Kharkovian T-64 chassis) and the gas-turbine variants of the tank (T-80B, T-80U) mostly were made in San-Petersburg and Omsk (few in Ukrainian Kharkov too), which counted as 3000 units. Only about 400 units of T-80UD (the diesel powered variant) were made in Kharkov. However, The very progressive (for 80th) turret-weapon complex of T-80UD was indeed developed in Kharkov. Most of the armor and sight technology of T-80UD was transfered to early T-72BM (T-90) variant. T-80A/S clones are almost free from Kharkovian "influence', since were developed in N-Tagil independently in 90-00th. Must be said that the MG technology was and remained purely Russian since Ukraine lack proved experience in this field. The T-80UDs of the Pakistan contract have in part Russian barrels, coz the Ukrainian made barrels have ridiculously low lifespan. Too, the Russian refuse to supply these tanks with original Russian MGs grows not from 'animosity' between two countries but exclusively from Indo-Russian lobby efforts. BTW the relation between Moscow and Kiev was rather good before US sponsored 'Orange revolution' and came back to be good after Yanukovich rose to power. It is felt in visible new contracts between Ukraine and India too (An-32 modernization), which could be easily spoiled by Russia if it really wants. Ukrainian plants as rule are the sub-contractors for Russian-made weapon systems (ships, missiles, planes etc) so the Ukrainian MIC is deeply integrated with the Russian , and in many cases the relation between two countries are more rightful to be described as cooperation, not competition. Yes Ukraine is still the biggest source for leaking Soviet technology to China but too: this is due to overall lack of funds in Ukrainian MIC, not because some conflict with Moscow.

  30. Thanks for the detail Igor, but the T-80 is really a Soviet tank, as like most of stuff made in the Soviet period its components came from all over the place.

    The fact that the Ukraine had trouble supplying T-80s to Pakistan on their own proves you couldn't call it a Ukrainian tank.

    Also, while Russia refused to help the Ukraine arm Russias best customer it was too early on to be because of lack of good will. The refusal by Russia to help the Ukraine complete its order from Pakistan however became one of the thorns between the two countries and was used by nationalists on both sides to move both countries further apart.
    Of the former Soviet republics it is hardly a surprise that the republics that wanted independence are the ones with the biggest nationalist components. Most of the 'stans would have been happy to remain in some sort of union with Russia, while the slavic nations (Ukraine and Belarus and Russia) seemed to want separation... the Baltic states also wanted separation too of course, but that has been driven by nationalism too.

    @Sujoy, I support your wish for closer ties between India and Russia for the new year.. both economic and military and political and cultural.

    Happy New Year everyone. :)

  31. Igor
    There is a lot of confusion going on regarding Nerpa
    is it a Akula 2 class or evolved Akula 2 class like the Gepard?
    Gepard does not have the bulb like towed sonar array i see

  32. The T-90MS looks nice, and sounds promising according to the specs. Too bad it is currently available for export, only.

  33. The Domestic model is the T-90AM and is secret, but the export model is based upon its design.

    What is the difference you might ask?

    I don't know, but I suspect anything they don't want to reveal right now could be on this new tank, which of course opens the way for all sorts of speculation.

    I suspect, based on the criticisms of the original T-90 that motivated the upgrade, which were pretty much get rid of the levers for driving and improve driver controls and transmission etc, plus increase engine power for better mobility, the other main criticisms seem to centre around its vulnerability to diving top attack weapons like Javelin.

    Perhaps the solution is an ARENA 2 or Drozd 3 APS or perhaps a brand new system.

    They have a hemisphere ball of IR sensors that has been revealed in conjunction with the Morfei SAM/AAM based on the 9M100 missile... a sensor like that would be ideal for detecting incoming top attack missiles, and a small turret containing a laser dazzler could be used for soft kills as a DIRCM system.

    I am suggesting this because the old big clunky tower with the MMW radar system for ARENA is not ideal... the fewer things that block the commanders pano viewer and of course his MG mount the better.

    The combination of a hemispherical IR sensor (a staring array like a flys compound eye that looks in all directions at once without blinking or scanning) plus a small ball turret with a laser means it captures angular info on the threat plus with the laser it get a precise range over time could generate the information needed for physical interception just like a radar would, so you could combine the hemisphere and small ball turret with ARENA elements. On the original ARENA the munition was fired up into the air and then detonated at a set height to fire fragments down at the incoming missile threat. To make it effective against a diving top attack missile a small modification of the munitions so they fire down in front of the turret and up and back behind the turret... the latter to hit any munitions falling. The up and back fragments can be angled upwards so that by the time they come back down they are traveling at much lower less dangerous velocities.

    You could probably use lighter but faster moving fragments firing up and back as they will lose velocity more rapidly and be a much smaller danger when they fall back to the ground, but their initial higher velocity will give them the energy to shatter the targets as they fall towards the tank...

    This is all speculation on my part... I like the Russian/Soviet idea of layers of tank protection including base armour, ERA(or NERA now), Active protection systems (Arena, Drozd), and passive protection systems (like Shtora and smoke grenades and Nakidka suites).

    I would assume there were active protection systems on the T-95 and that they will continue with those designs and fit them to the Armata too. It just makes sense to not reveal them till as late as possible, but then once they are revealed to fit them to everything... though by that stage they will likely only have upgraded T-72s, T-80s and T-90s along with Armatas in service.

  34. India closest in defence ties with Russia: Putin




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  52. I can finally post again... shame about the spambots above.

    Any possibility of this blog coming back to life Igor?


  53. Hi, Igorr. If you're still active on this blog, I have a question. How would you rate the T-90MS against the new T-84 Oplot-II upgrade? Some pretty impressive specs here...


  54. I was wondering if you still had any material about UAVs... we have part one but never got part two... would you mind posting anything you might have put together?


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  56. Hello Igor,

    Hope you are doing good.

    You have no idea how much we are missing your blog posts.

    I would therefore request you to please re start this Blog again. Your blog is without any doubt one of the best blog on the Russian Defence Industry.