Monday, October 25, 2010

Brahmos will be installed on Scorpenes

The Indo-Russian 'Brahmos' supersonic missiles will be installed on Indian 'Scorpenes' submarines, the 'BrahMos' JV co-director Alexander Maxichev said recently on EuroNaval show in France. 'The missile is ready for launching from subsurface platforms'  - he said. Maxichev explained, that the results of the Indian competition for additional number of submarines will be known soon, and 'we (BrahMos) push for installation on these missiles on them'. Indirectly his message confirms 'Scorpene' is the winner of the tender.

Maxichev also said that the first 'Brahmos' test on new 11356 frigates build for India is planned for early 2011. He pointed out that 'despite some delay in frigates building there is no any delay in Brahmos production'. The propulsion system of this missile is developed and maid in Russia while the guiding system and launcher are developed by Indian side.


  1. Igor:

    Scorpene currently fires exocets(which India has already ordered) via 533mm torpedo tubes.

    For brahmos I think you need vertical launch tubes as schematics of S1000(Italy-Russian submarine) shows.I don't think Scorpenes are being modified this way.

  2. This is just the guy who is the co director of the Brahmos Joint Venture saying that the Brahmos is ready to work on submarine platforms.

    Of course after going to the effort of developing the Brahmos and making it compatible with Submarines you have to wonder if the Indians will settle for Exocet or if they will ask for a vertical launch section to be added for Brahmos.
    Firing missiles through torpedo tubes is a nice trick, but it takes up space in the torpedo room, takes time to load and get ready for launch and means you can't use those tubes for anything else till you fire the missile.
    Missiles in vertical launch tubes are always ready to launch and you can have torpedoes ready to fire if you need them too.

    The act of firing vertical launch missiles can attract attention. Having some anti sub and anti ship torpedoes loaded and ready to use when you launch anti ship missiles is probably a good idea even if you don't use them.
    These days more than one missile is likely to be launched against most targets to ensure a hit.

  3. hi igor,
    {Indirectly his message confirms 'Scorpene' is the winner of the tender.} does that mean marlin of DCNS taking part in the sub competition?

  4. If you listen to the french then all weapon tenders are over and won by their superior technology, if they dont win the tender then the other nations are just stupid.

  5. to anon October 26, 2010 12:58 AM

    ==I don't think Scorpenes are being modified this way.==

    - But they will be if India pushes this as a conditional point for tender win.

  6. to anon October 26, 2010 7:37 AM

    = does that mean marlin of DCNS taking part in the sub competition?==

    - Yes, at least it is what his words mean. Of course, it can be called in different way too: Scorpene-II Scorpene mark-2, or Scorpene-MKI...

  7. I don't think we are interested in Scorpene 2 after they hiked prices on scorpene 1 etc.

    I think the front runner is Russian/Italian S1000 followed by HDW U214,

  8. Hi Igor

    "'The missile is ready for launching from subsurface platforms' - he said. Maxichev explained, that the results of the Indian competition for additional number of submarines will be known soon, and 'we (BrahMos) push for installation on these missiles on them'. Indirectly his message confirms 'Scorpene' is the winner of the tender."

    Can you explain why this statement of him says that Scorpene will be the winner? I mean he just say that they want to install the missile on those subs, but not on which one right?
    So far only the Amur class is officially offered with Brahmos VLS, but IN had asked the other conteders about such an installation too.
    Also, there was a report quoting DCNS officials, that Scorpene could add a modul with Brahmos VLS, but only instead of the modul with the AIP propulsion.
    I think by the fact that half of the Scorpene subs from the first tender won't have AIP, IN will have a focus on this propulsion this time.
    Are the Amur class subs offered with AIP too and if so, what kind?

  9. to Sancho:
    ==Can you explain why this statement of him says that Scorpene will be the winner? ==

    - I donno why it does but his statement clearly says he believe Scorpene is the winner.

    ==Are the Amur class subs offered with AIP too and if so, what kind?==

    - According to my knowledge the designated for Amur AIP (Cristall) on hydrogen cells is yet ready. SOme efforts were doing together with Italians (S1000 program) but they have no serial AIP too.

  10. I read that the S1000 is offered with the same fuel cell AIP system of the U214, from Siemens and that it has other features of the German subs too, like the non magnetic hull, similar to U 212 that Germany and Italy co-developed.
    Do you have any infos about the Cristall AIP, endurance for example?

  11. to Sancho :

    There were two Cristall AIP developed:

    1st gen Cristall-20 AIP, ended state testing in 1991. Has liquid hydrogen and oxygen storage.
    2gen Cristall-27, not yet ready, has hydrogen intermetallide storage, was developing for Lada\Amur class.
    Both allow to increase the endurance of subsurface moving without snorkeling by 5.5 times.

  12. Hello Igor,
    Asiandefence blog says, delivery of aircraft Carrier Gorshkov will be further delayed. Will its delivery be further delayed more than two years from now? Can you provide some update? Feels like something getting rotten in the relation between India and Russia.

  13. to Ravi:
    that an article is a pro-chineese BS, enough to bring some citations, like 'In typical Indian fashion with much pomp and ceremony' vs. 'In typical Chinese stoic demeanor'. So better not to comment this for not to make promotion for indo-phobia and chicom agit-prop.

  14. Any pics of the Vikramaditya in the pipeline?

  15. Thanks Igor for the clarification.

    India and Russia need each other better than ever.

    BTW, read about Bulava tests. Fantastic and congratulations to Russia and Russian People.

  16. ^^
    Ravi jee Russia long term sees itself as part of Europe what it was under the czars i.e major european player at par with Germany,UK,France...

    All this India courting is out of economic necessity especially sustaining a superpower MIC with 1/20th the domestic military demand not any great love for India.

    It sold us T-90S which is monkey version of T-90M and then the T-90M doesn't come with cactus ERA etc...

    PAK FA Indian version will NOT have 5 gen engine and many other advanced features.

    Arihant is based on very primitive 1970s tech...

    etc etc etc

    BOTTOM line Russia DOES NOT want India to have its own MIC because then most of its defence programs will be unsustainable due to lack of critical mass of orders and will wither away like Ukraine.Basically it will sugar coat its proposals with joint ventures,special partnership etc etc but we should be vary.

    You DO NOT become a major power(let alone super power) with 'joint' weapons programs.

  17. If India seriously wanted the best possible Russian tank they could have started a joint venture to work together on the T-95 or something.

    India instead bought T-90s and worked on their own tank. They didn't even buy all the extras for the T-90, and Kaktus is associated with the Black Eagle tank and has not been shown on a T-90 series tank so far anyway.
    The T-90S is better than 95% of all the tanks in the Russian tank inventory.
    Currently the Russian PAK FA will not have a 5th gen engine when it enters service either, and wont get one till about 2020.
    Arihant is an Indian project, not a Russian/Indian joint venture.
    Brahmos is one of the most capable land, sea, or air launched anti ship weapons in the world.

    Bottom line is that Russia is prepared to work with India in joint ventures. It will not give anything away but if you are prepared to buy then they are prepared to sell... and that is technology and skills.

    You wont get that anywhere else.
    I don't know of any love between the two countries but they are prepared to treat you as an equal partner... will you get the same from the US?
    And don't listen to what officials promise, because no matter what they promise a change in government or congress and you have to start again from scratch.

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