The Theory of Everybody
Great photos Igor. Do you know which thermal camera is used by the Mi-28N?
Hey Igorr, why don't I see you on BR anymore ? miss your posts.
As far as I know the Mi-28N uses the TOR thermal Imager which I believe is Russian.For the Mi-28M I have heard they are going to replace the TOR (which is in the big flat drum like turret under the nose used by the weapons officer) with a new system from UOMZ with a stabiliser and a laser for guiding laser beam riding missiles like Chrysantema.The air launched Chrysantema will have a range of 8km and armour penetration of 1,250mm under ERA. Hermes will also be an option for longer range engagements and for use against heavier targets.This thermal sight change will likely be applied to Mi-28N aircraft as well.
TOR is made by Zenit BTW.
Hi Igorr,This is Saurav Jha and I need your email id.http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/author/2976/sauravjha.html
Looks more 'simplistic' or 'rugged'(the phrase used would differ based on whom you asked) as compared to the Apache Longbow.If I were to say, its main advantage against the AH-64D in the Indian attack helo tender would be its significantly lower cost, because technically it appears to fall short. Combined with past Indian experience with Russian helos I'd expect it to win...
Assuming the Mi-28NE were to win an order from the Indian Air Force, would Mil consent to integrating a Western or Indian ATGM system, like, say, the Nag and Spike-NLOS, rather than the Vikhr-T?
Nag - certainly yesSpike - is depended from readiness of the Israeli manufacturer to give the sourse code for integration with Russian radar and OLS.
MBDA is doing integration work with Mi-28 and their PARS 3 LR (and Mistral) missiles, aiming at India. At one point they were also working with Ka-52, but I think that is on hold now that the Kamov is no longer being offered to India. http://defense-update.com/20110622_pars3lr_mbda.htmlhttp://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2011/06/27/India-short-lists-PARS-3-LR-guided-missile/UPI-13921309179652/You can´t say that the Mi-28 has no advantage vs. Apache except in cost... It has plenty of advantages, although certainly in areas like it´s sensors (radar and IR) it is playing catch up.
I thought I edited the above: PARS 3 LR is one of it´s advantages vs. Apache.
To Anon September 11, 2011 6:09 PMYou have been watching too much of Discovery, Hollywood & other promotional crap. Else, you would not have been writing such an ignorant stuffs. Cost in one of the definite advantages that Mi-28 have over Apache.Some other features that AH-64D can only dream off in its entire lifetime include armour, missile load etc
Igor,Vietnam is purchasing attack helicopters from Russia so as to deploy them against Chinese submarines in the South China Sea. Will the MI 28 be effective in targetting Chinese submarines which are increasingly becoming more silent ?
I would think a dedicated anti submarine helicopter would make more sense in such a role.The Ka-27 with dipping sonar and torpedoes and depth charges would be more appropriate than an attack helo like Mi-28 or Ka-52.A team of helos using dipping sonar and both active and passive sonar buoys should make things quite hard even for quiet subs.Working together with fixed wing aircraft like the Be-200 they could cover a lot of area while the dipping sonar of the helos would reduce the number of expendible but not cheap sonar buoys, yet still get the job done.
Sujit,Mi-28 is a ground target centric helo, there is not even in plans to use it in a marine theater.
Igor,European Aerospace and Defense companies like BAE are laying off a lot of skilled labours . Should Russia encourage large scale immigration of European talents into Russia so that Russia no longer has to purchase platforms like Mistral or pods for SU 35 from European countries but can develop them in the country ?Thanks,Shantanu
Anybody with security clearance to be able to work on high tech stuff will not be allowed to go to Russia to "work", and if they did they would likely not be able to return, which would likely not make them want to come in the first place.Russia has decided to buy Mistral class carriers, and Damocles targeting pods and Thermal Imagers from Thales. For the technology they are getting I don't think they are paying too much, and if you add in the time factor I don't think they could develop the same level of technology within a useful timescale without spending 4-5 times more than what it is currently costing them.Makes more sense to encourage new Russian engineers and specialists to cut their teeth on new programs... a bit of fresh thinking. Remember the first US rockets were V2s, and then they made their own designs... it is the same for the Russians now.
Igor,Indian newspapers are reporting that Russia is helping India develop an ICBM by providing the much needed Seeker Tech . http://www.dailypioneer.com/pioneer-news/todays-newspaper/11724-with-russian-help-india-to-join-icbm-big-league-soon.htmlMy understanding was that India already has Seeker Tech for IRBMs . The only difference between the ICBM & IRBM is of course the range but seekers remain the same.Will you please let me know how exactly is the Seeker tech in an ICBM different ?Regards,Sujoy
Hi Sujoy!The crucial point of ICBM guiding is so called asthro-correction i.e. the correction of ICBM missile's orientation after leaving the atmosphere by the sky map. After that the warheads enters atmosphere again and till the end are guided by the gyroscope only again.
Think of it like sailing across an ocean.Once you leave land behind and all there is to see is water you only have the position of the sun and the time to guide you.In different places around the earth the sun will be in a different position at a specific time, so if you know the precise time then the position of the sun in the sky can be used to work out your position on the sea surface.Once you get close to land, if you can spot a position that is a known fixed position you can use the angle to that point and your distance from that point to work out your position much more accurately.Modern ring laser gyros are actually rather accurate, but the error in precise location increases over time so the longer it operates the larger potential difference between where it says you are and where you probably actually are. This can be fixed by getting a fix on your position during flight by locating several prominent stars and triangulating your position based on their apparent position in the sky.Say the error of the gyros is 50m for every 3 minutes of flight that means an IRBM with a range of 2,000km might have an error of 250m after a 15 minute flight at something like mach 7 or so.The point is that if half way through that flight it gets a star fix then the error goes back to 0 and the actual error on target becomes something like 100m or so.The point is that only aggressors want highly accurate ICBMs... an inaccurate ICBM is something you target large cities with and it is a deterrent. A highly accurate ICBM allows you to specifically target the enemies ICBMs, for the purposes of a first strike...
Great helicopter, but I can understand why India chose the Apache. The Apache has plenty of combat experience, while the Mi-28N does not.
You can take a risk or you can go with a proven product.To be honest I think Indias choice was good for Mil anyway... India has a very harsh range of environments to operate in and I really don't think the Mi-28N is actually ready yet.I think it will be ready in about 2015 with the new Mi-28M model.I think working with India to make the Mi-28N fully functional in their harsh environment would have distracted attention away from the Mi-28M.The contract is only for a couple of dozen helicopters and the Mig-35 has already lost a competition because the Indian Air Force already has too many Russian aircraft, so to be honest I would prefer the Russian helos won the more lucrative medium lift helo competition and perhaps the light helo competition... let the US have the attack helicopter, and even the heavy lift helo contracts. After a few years when the Mi-28M has matured they might be sick of the high maintainence for the Apache and also the strings attached to its usage, and look at a larger order of Havocs.Lots of orders for Ansats or Aktais, and Mi-17s will be much more profitable for Russia than a small batch of Havocs.
@ russianmilitaryphotos and @ GarryB It's good to know that the Indian side gave a de briefing to Russia as to why the Mi 28N was not selected . As reported by the local press ( mostly Hindi) one of the advantage that the Apache had over the Mi 28N (as stated by the Indian Air Force ) was that it had a superior radar and EW suite . If local press is to be believed 20 reasons were cited.To be honest with you guys I do not know exactly how India plans to take out Chinese mechanized units with attack helos like the Apache in the absence of a slow moving ground attack aircraft like the SU 25 or A 10 . In all likelihood the Apache's will be used against Pakistani tank divisions and in counter insurgency operations.At a more holistic level the US has a far robust marketing plan in India than Russia or Europe. True, marketing and lobbying isn't enough as the MMRCA deal proved (though the US still fancies it's chances with the F 35) but it does make a difference. I am not asking Russia to adopt the dubious mud slinging tactics that the US employs however it needs to make it's presence felt . Enter into JVs with Indian Companies , advertise your products more efficiently and also catch the US bluffs (albeit indiscreetly) . Regards,Sujoy
At the end of the day the Russians need to, and do respect Indias decisions regarding weapon purchases.India has decided it needs diversification in weapons and equipment, Russia needs to realise that it also needs to expand its customer base.With the end of the cold war Russia largely lost its Warsaw Pact market for military supplies, which left them with China, and India as the few customers with the interest in Russian and Soviet weapons and the money to buy products in significant amounts. For about 20 years even the Russian military was not really buying products so China and India were critical for keeping some parts of the Russian MIC alive.Now however, things have shifted... the Russian military has money and is making orders, which is not of course as profitable as exports, but will keep them busy and the large production runs and work will enable them to invest more on research and development.Previously they could show a new product but if China or India didn't want it then it is very unlikely Myanmar or Algeria would take on the risk of being the only user of a system.Now the Russian military is buying Su-35s and it seems Mig-35s then their future is more solid so export sales become much easier once they have a track record.Of course other things are changing now too, Russia is finding new markets, like South Korea, and of course countries like UAE are spending their own money upgrading Russian systems to their tastes (Pantsir-S1), which has also benefited the Russian military.The Mi-28N might not have a comparable EW suite, or the radar performance of a Longbow Apache now, but in other aspects like armour and cost of operation it will be far superior, and with work proceeding on the radar and EW suites these objections will no longer be relevant. In fact they could have made the problems into good things that they could benefit from... I am sure Indian specialists could have contributed and together with Russian specialists created radar and EW suite for the Mi-28N.There have been reports of small arms fire penetrating the side windows of the Apache, which are not armoured... ironically this was a western criticism of the Hind in Afghanistan too, and as you would expect the problem was corrected on the Mi-28A which has armoured glass that has been tested to 14.5mm ammo proof, and will survive a 20mm HEI cannon shell hit.India has picked its attack helo, and I agree with their choice right now because I would think the Apache is the mature product.Ten years ago I would have agreed even more as the Mi-28 had a fairly uncertain future.Now however, I think that in 10 years time, I think the Mi-28M will be the attack helicopter other helicopters will be measured against and come up short in comparison.But as I said, if choosing which competition you want to win, knowing if you win too many you will lose some contracts simply because you already have too many, then the two dozen attack helo competition is the one to lose.BTW beware of the US marketing... the masters of the infomercial. The Discovery channel and the History channel and in many ways the US media are all branches of a huge propaganda machine. It used to be pretty black and white... Hollywood movies are entertainment, while the media and documentaries were supposed to be based in reality. Now it is all Hollywood, selling the American dream... they are getting scared now because some of the zombies are waking up just like the Russians woke up from communism and realised they weren't getting what they were promised and that despite the animosity between both forms of government they both resulted in the privileged few with power and money and position, and the great masses working to survive trying to pay off debts for cars and houses and big screen TVs and lots of stuff they really can't afford.
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