Tuesday, March 2, 2010

Pogosyan: The 2nd stage engine for PK FA will be ready after 2015

Russian 'United Airbuilding Corporation' (UAC) will be the system integrator of 2nd stage engine for 5th gen fighter,- said today Mikhail Pogosyan, the Sukhoi corp chief.

According to ARMS-TASS, he also have said, that the 'United Engine-building Corporation' will merge 'Salut' corp - second prominent center of gas-turbine manufacturing and design in Russia. 'The specification of the prospective engine is decided, but the whole time of development will take 10-12 years, so this engine will not be ready in 2015 for sure'? - he said.

He also marked that there is nothing critical with the fact that the tests of PAK FA have started with 1st stage engine. 'THe plane took-off with the engine, which was projected for this fighter, 'it's very modern device, allowing long term exploitation of the plane'. The plane will start its service in RuAF with the 1st phase engine.

As regards 2nd phase engine, the terms of the program need elaboration, it will be decided during 2010 - 2011 maximum , he added. During Putin visit to 'Sukhoi' facility in Moscow Pogosyan also declared that 27 degree AoA was achieved throughout last PAK FA testing. 'When Su-27 was tested, such AoA was achieved only after some months of active testing' he added.


  1. When now we know about engine, next question is about weapon systems.
    Dear Igor we count on you.

  2. Great article Igor!
    What I still don't understand is;
    this "1st phase engine" is this also the same completely NEW 5th generation engine as "2nd phase engine"
    (just not fully developed as 2nd phase)
    Or maybe it is just 4++ engine upgrade of existing engines like the one used on 1st prototype?

  3. the currently installed 'index-117' is 'the 1nd phase' engine in the context of PAK FA program. it (ot its slightly uprated variant) also will be on the first serial batch of T-50s when they come to RuAF service in 2014-2015.

  4. Igor what do you think will be India's role in this engine is russia only going for the asaturn NPO model or are there two engine programs aka F135/136 for the JSF with RR-UK pitching in for the F136 what I was thinking is is something similar possible for India's role in the second engine?

  5. to anon March 3, 2010 6:21 PM:

    For India to play a role in 2nd phase PAKFA/FGFA engine development the wiliness of Delhi is needed at least. Indians want to be a part of deciding body about whole FGFA tech face, including engine, but I;m not sure if they want Russian-based engine, joint Indo-Russian project or different. As I evaluate the current situation right, the Indian side still is far from having a firm position on the issue. However, the possibility for cooperation exists. Russian engine-building industry is seeking for a partners, because a new 5th gen engine development is very costly adventure, and the Russian state isn't ready to finance more, then 25-50% of R&D.

  6. Igor:
    Methinks and I know this is a bit rich coming from a country that can only license produce engines,that Russia should have 2 engine manufacturers such as US has P&W and GE.
    I think the Russian equivalents should be Klimov and NPO saturn.
    Now Russia does not have $$$ like US its economic equivalent is something like UK(in PPP terms),so like UK has liberty works in USA eligible for DARPA funding klimov should have a similar base in India which can bid agressively to jointly produce VK-10s for MCA program or the alternate engine for PAK FA on Indian territory.
    That way we benefit by roping in russian expertise for critical national importance programs ad you have a viable second engine manufacturer.
    Your views please?

  7. The Current Russian policy of buying foreign stuff when domestic stuff isn't up to scratch or simply is not up to standard should mean internal competition is not necessary.
    I concede that the US wont sell Russia 5th gen engines, but the French might consider working together in many areas.
    Remember the purchase of French thermal sights was not a simple every day off the shelf purchase.
    The Russians tested French thermal sights against domestic ones and found the French ones were much better, which is no surprise considering the west has focused on thermal imagers for the last 2 decades while the Soviets concentrated more on LLLTV (low light level TV). This results in the Russians having advanced EO systems with automatic target trackers as used in Tunguska and TOR but lacking till recently decent TI for night and all weather capability at long range.
    The result is that Russia selects French thermal sights and gets a licence to produce them locally and also signs agreements with Thales to develop new generation equipment.
    The domestic producer of thermal imagers tools up to make state of the art thermal sights under licence and can use this tooling and experience with thales to further develop new systems for the future.
    Win, win for Russia.
    Thales gets some money for the sale and the licence production and it opens up a whole new market for their products because Russia can sell thermal sights to all sorts of countries that France can't, and the reduced manufacturing costs means either cheaper products, which helps sales or larger profit margin.
    All good for Thales too.

  8. Sorry to go on about it, but also there was a tradition of grouping of design bureaus already in that for example Migs generally had radars and engines from the same place and Sukhoi and the other aircraft design bureaus also had relationships with specific makers of things.
    In that sense an engine maker wasn't competing with a rival engine maker, it was a group of bureaus competing with another group.
    The question is can the engine makers work together, and the history of Soviet design bureaus show they could as design bureaus were shifted to different things quite often and the bureaus themselves often dabbled in areas seen as strengths for other OKBs.
    For example for Sukhoi the Su-27 was really their first fighter to challenge MIG.
    Sukhoi had interceptors like the Flagon etc but was new to modern fighters.
    Tupolev focussed on large heavy planes but worked on interceptors as well in the Tu-128.
    The Lavochkin design bureau went to space vehicles.

  9. Garry B

    The French aren't exactly great sheiks when it comes to jet engines till GE hand held them their m 2000 used to fly with the single spool M53 engine.GE transferred them F404 tech to develop the M88 in the late 80s cause it needed money to fund YF120 and thought the whole world will shift to 5 gen engines in the mid 90s anyway.

    The M88 is a very average engine performance wise is outclassed by late model F404 to say nothing of the F414/EJ 200.

    Developing the fifth gen engine is gonna cost $$$ and the French won't invest until there is a pan european 5 gen program which wants a SNECMA engine unlikely since RR is a vastly superior engine manufacturer.

  10. I agree, but the UKs relationship with Russia is no better than the US's or Australia's so I would suggest such a relationship politically impossible for the foreseeable future.

  11. Garry B

    True but why not team up with Germany.MTU Aero engines already make the core for the EJ 200 and many many other engines and is considered one of the world's best engine houses.

    Heck even P&W gets the core of its flagship Geared Turbofan jointly developed by MTU.

    -Shantanu Chatterjee

  12. Indeed the more Russia and Old Europe work together, the harder it will be for the US and New Europe to force Russia and Europe apart.

  13. Do you thinks about the recent "hot leaked picture" of PAK-FA