Wednesday, May 25, 2011

New fighters were shown for Indian general

After last China's supportive gestures towards Pakistan, Russia is demonstratively standing alongside India. The second PAK FA prototype was showed in Gromov' center (Zhukovsky, Moscow region) for Indian AF commander Pradip Vasant Naik reports ARMS-TASS. UAC and Sukhoi chief M. Pogosyan personally took part in this meeting too. The cooperation in joint FGFA development has started in October 2007, in Dec 2010 the joint agreement was contracted between HAL and Sukhoi.  Pogosyan said he believes joint civilian aviation programs will be coming after last military and transport aviation ventures maturing between two countries.  Modernized MiG-29UPG was shown to the Indian delegation too. As was explained in other ARMS-TASS story MiG-29UPG, prepared for Indian AF will be maximally unified with MiG-29K\KUB by avionics and radar. However the airframe will be closer remember MiG-29SMT modification, since the old Indian MiG-29 airframe cannot be transformed in one MiG-29K/KUB.


  1. Isn't it funny how people talk about geopolitical shifts... Pakistan moving towards China... India moving towards the US and away from Russia.

    Apart from the MRCA program however I see fairly good trade relations between India and Russia in military goods... if they had chosen the Mig-35 I think the Indians probably would have felt they were too dependent on Russia for fighter aircraft.

    Pakistan might look to China because the US is getting tired of finding the people causing them problems in Afghanistan and elsewhere are hiding in Pakistan under Pakistani protection.
    It is hardly a case that China offers Pakistan better technology, though it would be cheaper and with no strings attached.

    With regard to business between the US and India it seems to me that they are buying from the US things they can't currently get from Russia like large Maritime Patrol Aircraft (the Il-38 May and Tu-142 are no longer in production), and large transports (their enormously expensive C-17 order was too early so Il-476 or An-124 was not in production at the time).

  2. BTW welcome back Igor...

    Any new info on the AK-200?
    Specifically does it have a balanced recoil mechanism?

    After all this testing I will be disappointed if it is just an AK-74M with rails all over it.

  3. Welcome BACK Dear Igor

    You were away for so long

    Please tell us about the status of Akula Submarine

    Has it left for India

    Also there was a report in an Indian Defence Blog about MIRES X Band radar for Su 30 Mki upgrade programme

    What is it ? Please explain

  4. to anon May 25, 2011 8:45 AM^

    I;m not sure in name MIRES of the radar since no confirmation for this name since 2007, but it's known that the new NIIP AESA radar is made on the base of BARS-IRBIS PESA and will use some key elements of the same technology. It's like APG-79 is an extension of APG-73 in some sense. The developing of the current radars is evolutionary.

    And the MKI first upgrade will be with new PESA array, not AESA. There are lot of info about it. Probably the level of IRBIS will be achieved on the upgraded BARS at this step.

  5. to Garry:
    ==After all this testing I will be disappointed if it is just an AK-74M with rails all over it.==

    - I will too, but the current priorities of the DM are totally different, far away from the small arms. I can understand them too since small arms don't play decisive role on the contemporary battlefield.

  6. Then why waste the money in the first place.

    I see plenty of programs of upgrade of material to keep that material "modern" till the real replacement is ready.
    Obvious examples of this include the Su-35 and Su-27SM for the PAK FA in the air and on land the BTR-82 for the eventual boomerang and the T-90AM for the eventual Armata.

    Claims that it is too difficult and expensive to mass produce don't hold water... Kalashnikov offered AK-107 and AK-108 with balanced recoil mechanisms so they are clearly ready to mass produce them.

    Considering the Russian military is one of the few militaries in the world that still allow their soldiers to fire in bursts of automatic fire at targets in combat I would think a balanced recoil mechanism that is really only useful in burst fire would be a priority.

    If that is too hard why bother with any changes at all... keep the AK-74M till a real replacement is ready.

    I would think that their first priority in small arms would be new more efficient propellents and perhaps a plastic case or caseless replacement of the 7.62 x 54mm round.

    If they can halve the weight of that round and with plastic being much cheaper than metal making the ammo cheaper, they could retain an effective cartridge for sniping and for machineguns while save a lot of money and greatly reduce weights or increase ammo capacity.

    BTW glad you have time right now. :)

  7. GarryB,

    5,45 mm cartridge is light enough comparing to 5,56NATO, some 30% difference in weight if I remember right. Thus, and due to the current priorities list described above, Russia will not be the first country, who turns to plastic cartridge.

    However, I like the idea of making the infantrymen equipment lighter very much. But the munition is only a part of the problem. Lighter and more effective bodyarmor and helmet - is more important.

  8. I wasn't even thinking of the 5.45 because in many ways I think it is rather better than the 5.56mm round already.
    The only improvement would be improved more consistent and cleaner burning propellent.
    That would improve accuracy from all types of weapons that use it and reduce maintainence requirements.
    It is the old rimmed 7.62 x 54mm round I am suggesting they replace.
    Right now a box with 100 rounds of ammo for a PKM weighs about 4kgs which is a significant amount of weight to add to a weapon already weighing almost 10kgs.
    Plastic cartridge cases, or in fact caseless rounds are the way forward in small arms ammo.
    The metal shell case in small arms is a significant cost in terms of price and weight in ammo and by reducing both it can allow innovative changes to be made to the weapon that uses it.
    For instance the wide rim on the 7.62 x 54mm round means that when used in a belt fed weapon like the PKM the loading procedure includes pulling the round backwards out of the belt and then pushing it forward into the chamber.
    With a modern rimmless round or plastic cased rimmless round or caseless round the round can simply be rammed forward directly from the belt straight into the chamber which is much simpler and easier.
    Improved propellents that increase muzzle velocity safely will produce flatter trajectories and improve terminal performance at extended range in all calibres.
    More consistently burning modern powders will also improve accuracy in all calibres too.

    Regarding making infantry equipment lighter you might be interested in this:


    They are viewing everything a soldier carries as a set of equipment rather than just focusing on each item seperately as they used to.

    Now ammo and weapons and armour etc are all together as a set that are designed with the other items in mind so for instance all the electronics that need to be carried and more importantly powered... a solution might be a gel battery that could be worn as a vest under the body armour. It wont stop bullets but being a gel it can act as a trauma layer to reduce bruising from enemy fire stopped by the body armour. The gel battery would also act as soft padding that makes the body armour more comfortable to wear for long periods.

    But making ammo lighter is also important... when the soldier carries hundreds of rounds then each saving in weight per round is magnified hundreds of times... of course make ammo lighter and many soldiers will just carry more ammo.

  9. only one point , GarryB: ==the wide rim on the 7.62 x 54mm round means that when used in a belt fed weapon like the PKM the loading procedure includes pulling the round backwards out of the belt and then pushing it forward into the chamber.
    With a modern rimmless round or plastic cased rimmless round or caseless round the round can simply be rammed forward directly from the belt straight into the chamber which is much simpler and easier.==

    - Contrarywise the indirect loading procedure means the foul rounds is cleaned from the mud. So PKM is very reliable in the most hard condition. Of course it has its costs by weight.

  10. A sealed mag with caseless ammo loaded at the factory would solve the same problem and others while making the weapons shorter and lighter and of course making the ammo cheaper and lighter.
    With research new powder mixtures could allow more efficient propellent loads for the weapons that will use them so MG ammo will be optimised for MG barrel lengths so muzzle velocity can be increased 30% and muzzle flash eliminated.
    The same for sniper and rifle ammo... according to the Russian chemical/propellent industry.

    More importantly consistently burning powder resulting in less variation in bullet velocity should result in greatly improved accuracy too as lower cleaning requirements.

  11. Igor ,

    How effective will the MIG 29 KUB or the SU 30 MKI be in Electronic Warfare . Some defense analysts here in India are expressing the fear that EW aircrafts like the Growler can very easily jam the radar of MIG 29 KUB and SU 30 MKI.

    Thanks ,

    Ramesh Mitra

  12. By the time Indian Migs and Flankers face Growlers do you even know what sort of radars the Migs and Flankers will be operating with?

    If it is such an issue a Flanker is a large aircraft with excess electrical power take off from the engines so any sort of jamming system a Growler could carry the Flanker could carry two.

    And thirdly a jammer that can completely jam a radar would need to be quite powerful and home on jamming functions can be programmed into all sorts of missiles that would allow completely passive attacks from great distances.

  13. GarryB ,

    Appreciate your response . The reason why I asked this question is because in the F 18 Super Hornet and the Growler hunt in pairs . In the past the Australian Air Force has tried to spy on Indian Submarines and Aircrafts and has also tried to jam the radar of aircrafts . A section of Indian defense analysts believe that Australia will acquire the Growler in the near future and might use it against the Indian Air force over the Indian Ocean albeit secretly.



  14. R.Mitra,
    the EW is one of the most secretive sphere of mil development and each side keeps the cards close to body, so we hardly can say who is who till clash occurs/. However the professionals do know much more since have intelligence sources, but even they happen to be wrong sometimes.

  15. I don't understand how it can be used against you.

    If Australian aircraft are in the Indian ocean what advantage would they gain to jam the radar equipment on Indian aircraft?

    As long as they operate in international waters there is no point in jamming anything.

    AFAIK the Russians tested a jamming aircraft based on the Tu-22M3 but finally settled on a model based on the Il-76 because the jamming suite was much more powerful...

    If Growlers worry you there are Russian and likely other alternatives you can look at including modified Su-30MKI models if you are interested that should have the excess electrical power and electronic performance to easily over power an aircraft like an F-18.

    There is always IIR guided missiles too of course.

    A jamming aircraft like the Growler will hardly be able to do its job without emitting any radar energy so a radar silent aircraft should be able to find such an aircraft and a long range missile option to defeat it is on the way no doubt...

  16. GarryB,

    As I had stated earlier that journalists close to the Indian Armed forces are stating these and the reason why I tend to believe such reports is because in the past Australia has used it's spy planes to capture signals of Indian Kilo class submarines . Then they send these data to the US base in Diego Garcia. The US also uses these data to track Iranian kilo class submarines.

    It was reported that an EW aircraft most probably a Growler was used by the Australians to pick up / jam radar frequencies of the NIIP Bars radar as the US had failed to carry out this exercise during the Red Flag exercise held in the US.



  17. Growlers would be useless to detect Submarines.
    The Australians would most likely use Orion type aircraft, or even more likely their own Collins class subs to find and get a signature of Indian subs... and I rather suspect Indian subs would be trying to do the same to Australian Collins class subs.
    This is perfectly normal.

    Very simply when Indian Kilos are operating on diesel engines they will have a signature that can be detected from reasonable ranges... when operating on electric power only however they will be several orders of magnitude quieter and when they use salination layers in the sea water they will be even harder to track.

    The point is that in electric mode it is incredibly hard to detect and track a sub that is operating properly.

    AFAIK the Indian Su-30MKIs did not use their radars during the exercise in the US, and when operating in their own airspace if they did use their radars they would operate them in a peacetime range of frequencies that are quite different from the frequency set they would use in times of war.

    EW is a game of cat and mouse and is a constant game of measure and counter measure... having a dedicated EW aircraft is of benefit to the Aussies... perhaps India should consider an EW version of an Su-30MKI with perhaps Israeli and French and Russian EW equipment.

    US aircraft wouldn't jam the radars of aircraft in international airspace or Indian airspace simply because their methods of jamming could be analysed and methods developed to find and kill the jamming aircraft could be determined totally passively so when they go to war all of a sudden they might find the first wave of enemy aircraft have a dedicated missile... perhaps based on the R-27EP that homes in on the jammer aircraft specifically.

  18. Hi GarryB,

    I agree with you , however I would like to add a few points of my own . You asked why the Growler would be used against us . Let me tell you why . The US is trying every trick in the book to enter the lucrative Indian defense market till now dominated by Russia ( and also by Israel).

    The US has been planting news in the Indian media that Russian weapons are of inferior quality. They would therefore jam one of our SU 30 MKI or Mig 29 hoping that it would crash. Then they can very easily advertise that Russian jets crash because of inferior avionics , engine etc in an effort to mobilize opinions among bureaucrats , politicians and the general public against Russian made weapons.(Long story just cutting it short).

    One more thing . If US aircrafts jam the radars of our aircrafts in International/Indian airspace we will simply not be able to analyse their methods of jamming as we (Indians) simply don't have that level of engineering skills .